Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Leasing/buying a used LEAF?
#1
{This thread was broken off from here : http://soloowners.net/showthread.php?tid...33#pid4633 }


(02-12-2018, 11:32 AM)Rickb Wrote:
(02-12-2018, 05:10 AM)SparkE Wrote:
(02-12-2018, 04:24 AM)paravil Wrote: The biggest opportunity for EMV to fail is not delivering Solo in bulk before other auto-makers broaden the field.

I've made that point on more than one occasion on this site. Nissan is inadvertently broadening the field - with a deluge of lease returns from customers. I can wait (for some indeterminate amount of time) and buy a Solo for about US$15,000 - maybe, some day - OR I can go out tomorrow (literally tomorrow) and pay about US$7500 (or less) for a 3-year-old, low-mileage, used LEAF that seats 4 and will go 80+ miles of freeway driving. No, that LEAF won't have the "neat cachet" of the Solo. No, the LEAF won't get as good "mileage" (miles per kWh). I have basically resigned myself to the idea that I will be buying a used LEAF in about 12 months - no company has instilled the slightest amount of confidence in *me* that they will be able to provide a dependable, 1-or-2-seater EV to *me* in that timeframe.

I will maybe end up buying a Solo or SRK in 2021 (or later) - if they ever ship. I would have gladly forked over $15000 in Feb 2017 for a Solo - if I could have gotten one. As it stands, EMV must convince me that they will actually deliver these things long before I spend a second looking at one. So now they have to ship, in quantity, over a multiple-quarter period before I would even consider test-driving one. That's how badly Kroll has f'd up. And I'm telling the same thing to everybody when the subject of small EVs comes up (Sonders, or whatever) - I'm not holding my breath for a Solo, and I'll very likely end up buying something else. I've talked multiple people out of considering a Solo over the past 3 months. (None of them really cared about an enclosed 3-wheeler - they want a small, efficient EV just like I do.) Kroll is continuing to make it easy for me to talk people out of the Solo - "ha! look what he said this month" or "the story has changed yet again - and still no tangible product".
Spark, curious if you have calculated the cost of leasing a new Leaf as an option to buying used?  Does the cost of fuel savings offset the cost of the lease payment enough to make leasing a viable option?


1) There aren't any new LEAFs available for lease. (Nissan just released their "overhaul" of the LEAF, it does 150-160 miles now, and NONE are currently available - that will change in the months to come.) I refer to LEAF1 (the model sold since 2011 or so) and the LEAF2 (new model in 2018). I specifically mention the LEAF, as there are many of them available, and 10s of thousands will be coming off-lease this year and next. There is already a glut, it will get worse, and they are REALLY inexpensive.

2) I think that the (used) LEAF1 is a better compare to the Solo than the (new) LEAF2: '1' has slightly less range than the Solo, compared to a LOT more range than the Solo for the '2'. Although the LEAF2 is much closer to the Solo in one category : you can't get one in the U.S. yet! Wink

3) Based on previous lease conditions, I would *expect* the monthly cost of a LEAF lease to be in the $200-300 range. So, $2500/yr and over. I can BUY a car for $7500, *OR* I can pay $7500 in payments (then give the car back after 3 years). I really don't see why I would lease under those conditions.

I am *currently* leasing an EV (a Spark EV) - but I had stumbled across a FANTASTIC deal : $89/mo. I got the ONE vehicle at that price. Adding everything up (down payment, mo cost, deducting CA rebate, PG&E {utility} rebate, ...) the car costs me about $30/mo. I am driving a NEW vehicle for less than I paid in gas costs bi-weekly with my previous vehicle. I also get a LOT of my electricity for free (more than 3/4, in fact). So, for me, it was a no-brainer. But I'm going to have to return it next year (2019).
[+] 1 user Likes SparkE's post
Reply
#2
OK, the "official" offer from Nissan USA for a new 2018 LEAF2 lease :

$229/mo + tax, with $3979 downpaymt + tax, lic drive-off
3-year total: $11994 + tax, lic
12K miles/year

That is : 11994/36 = $333.16/mo

So, WAY more expensive over 3 years than simplky buying an old LEAF (of course, only about 1/2 the mileage range)
[+] 1 user Likes SparkE's post
Reply
#3
(02-12-2018, 05:36 PM)SparkE Wrote: OK, the "official" offer from Nissan USA for a new 2018 LEAF2 lease :

$229/mo + tax, with $3979 downpaymt + tax, lic drive-off
3-year total: $11994 + tax, lic
12K miles/year

That is : 11994/36 =  $333.16/mo

So, WAY more expensive over 3 years than simplky buying an old LEAF (of course, only about 1/2 the mileage range)

But... would the person leasing this get a US tax incentive rebate?
I remember reading about that in several different places.
Required listening... House of Lords - Can't find my way home
This version kicks. There's just no other way to describe it. Shivers. Turn...it...up!
Disclaimer: No false statistics were supported, displayed or harmed in the making of this post.
Reply
#4
I don't believe that *leasing* gets "the driver" a federal tax incentive - the "buyer" (the leasing company) gets the tax incentive.
Reply
#5
(02-12-2018, 05:36 PM)SparkE Wrote: So, WAY more expensive over 3 years than simplky buying an old LEAF (of course, only about 1/2 the mileage range)

Thanks for the data but what's this about "1/2 the mileage range"? Are you meaning the range of a 2011 Leaf versus 2018 Leaf or are you meaning degradation of the battery in the older car? Many people find the old Leaf perfectly OK for range in commuting/errands. The new Leaf might make longer hops possible on the highway but even the Solo can manage quite long trips with many stops for charging. The new Leaf takes longer to charge and gets less distance per hour of charging than Solo. OK, it can carry a growing family...

Even if I had the choice of a $free Leaf, I might still consider the Solo because the Leaf has way more moving parts. Just look under the hood. Nissan made it look like a car engine just to make maintenance/repair more expensive. You can find video on YouTube of a Leaf "engine" being disassembled and they bolted together the charging unit, the inverter, the motor-controller and the motor in a single lump, so there's no front trunk... I just hate the design. Look at the recommended maintenance for Leaf. Because all that junk's bolted together it can't be air-cooled. The sucker has tubing running all over to keep it cool, just like an ICE. It's a horrible design compared to Solo using COTS parts appropriately positioned where they need to go. I'm sure Leafs work but they cost more to make and more to drive and more to maintain for zero benefit to an old coot like me.
My blog is an eclectic list of rants and commentary about things for which I care. See MrPogson.com It's been around a decade...
Reply
#6
Styling is personal.  Compare safety ratings of the Leaf to the SOLO....and the Leaf wins.   The Leaf sits higher for easiy ingress/egress and driver comfort.   I can buy a Leaf tomorrow and there is a servicing network in place with an award winning customer service department.  Also, the CEO isn’t capital A arrogant and the Nissan CEO possesses people skills.
SOLO #166 reservation refunded 12/14/2017.   OVER & OUT!  
Reply
#7
(02-12-2018, 11:01 PM)Rickb Wrote: the CEO isn’t capital A arrogant and the Nissan CEO possesses people skills.

"This was as Leaf sales were on their way to only 9,674 units in the U.S. for 2011. It’s as though Ghosn created his own virtual EV game that only DOE was invited to, in which they dreamt up a plug-in paradise where fossil fuels are demonic obstacles and extension cords choke them into submission. Then they could take their fantasy game numbers (including bonus points for “avoiding” the CO2 crash wall) and send them to DOE’s Loan Program Office for posting on the Web, while the Japanese auto interloper made away with U.S. taxpayer prize money."

See Nissan Admits Arrogance in Sales of Taxpayer-Subsidized Leaf

Maybe arrogance is some kind of requirement to make/sell automobiles especially EVs. Nissan definitely got ahead of itself by half a decade. EMV seems to be catching the wave of adoption better but they have to deliver this year or it's all for nothing.
My blog is an eclectic list of rants and commentary about things for which I care. See MrPogson.com It's been around a decade...
Reply
#8
(02-12-2018, 09:55 PM)pogson Wrote:
(02-12-2018, 05:36 PM)SparkE Wrote: So, WAY more expensive over 3 years than simplky buying an old LEAF (of course, only about 1/2 the mileage range)

Thanks for the data but what's this about "1/2 the mileage range"? Are you meaning the range of a 2011 Leaf versus 2018 Leaf or are you meaning degradation of the battery in the older car? Many people find the old Leaf perfectly OK for range in commuting/errands. 

Answer: yes.  Big Grin

Both, actually. The 2015 (and earlier) LEAFs have a (EPA) range around 85, the new 2018 LEAFs have a range around 160. Since the Solo has a (Kroll) range of 100 miles (meaning "who knows"), the LEAF1 has "a little less" range than a Solo and the LEAF2 has "a lot more range" than the Solo, while the LEAF1 has "about 1/2 the range" of a LEAF2.

A year ago, I wanted to spend $15,000 on a really neat vehicle that really fit both my outlook and lifestyle (the Solo). Today, I hve no idea whatsoever when the Solo will be available to me, and I can go out and spend HALF the money and get FOUR TIMES the internal passenger space (and more cargo space as well - LOTS more with only two passengers).

I don't particularly WANT a LEAF, but it looks like that's what I will be driving in 2019-2020. In 2021, there will (hopefully) be several choices in small EVs, as well as MANY 150+-mile-range battery-only EVs (Bolt, LEAF2, model3, Ioniq, Nero, ...) coming off-lease and available on the used market. The EMV shenanigans have pushed me away from the Solo for the immediate future (I had my checkbook in hand ready to plop down $15,000 in Nov 2016). 2-3 years from now? Well, we will see.
Reply
#9
(02-13-2018, 02:55 PM)SparkE Wrote: The EMV shenanigans have pushed me away from the Solo for the immediate future (I had my checkbook in hand ready to plop down $15,000 in Nov 2016). 2-3 years from now? Well, we will see.
I don't know whether shenanigans is the correct term. It could be incompetence, lack of focus or spreading the talent too thinly. Maybe all of those. Whatever the mechanism, delayed production does no one any good. Announcing production was imminent a year and a half ago certainly set a lot of people up for disappointment. Even a broken watch used to be right twice a day. Now, in the digital age, it's just scrap. I just know I'm a year and a half older and having less fun than I deserve... The only upside I see in the delay of Solo is that batteries are better and solar panels are cheaper.
My blog is an eclectic list of rants and commentary about things for which I care. See MrPogson.com It's been around a decade...
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)